Chris, WFG is a hybrid creature, in many ways. You call it a directory like DMOZ or Yahoo, yet many think of it as a review/ranking site. Which of these two roles do you think is of greater importance to the web fiction writing and/or reading communities?

WFG is a marketplace and a community, more than anything else. It provides a place for people to come and find out about things available to read, and to share their feelings about those experiences with other people looking for the same. It’s a place where people can say “hey — I found this terrific story, and you should check it out”. And yes, it’s a place where authors can (hopefully) find readers looking for what they have to offer. But, ultimately, the site is geared towards readers, not writers. A listing on our site is relatively useless by itself. Really, it’s the first and only time the author gets to set the agenda on the site — to yell to the world “I exist”. After that, it’s up to the readers to decide whether or not they care.

Reviewing is a way they can express their feelings — to tell others “check this out”, or, when necessary, “don’t”. A good review (good, not necessarily positive) helps tell other people something important — specifically, whether or not they are likely to want to read the story being reviewed. That’s what we really offer to both our readers and our writers alike — word of mouth.

Your site design seems to be a good compromise between the two poles people fear in review sites: “too many books coming in to handle” vs “unreliable peer to peer reviews”. Would you see a “two tier” review system (with both open peer reviews and staff reviewing) as having problems as well as advantages?

Well, the two-tier version definitely has problems, the biggest being workload. We’ve already had to significantly change the way we work. For most of the first year, an editor read and reviewed every listing, and the editor rating was paramount. We worked through new listings mostly in order, and everything got reviewed. We just can’t do that any more. Frankly, the editorial board burned out from the workload — and we get a lot more listings now than we did then. There are just way too many new listings — many of them full novels — for us to read and review everything.

As a result, the system now applies a default rating of just below “worth a look”, and we generally read at most a page or two at listing time, and move stuff up in rating if the writing seems better than average. Of course, that means we are probably less accurate than we used to be — some writing doesn’t grab on the first page but gets better later on, for instance — which is why our membership now has a lot more power than when we started. Because we know we won’t be looking closely at everything, member ratings and recommendations get a lot more weight in the ranking algorithm than they used to. In fact, member opinions can push a listing as much as two stars further up the ranking, at present.

Anyway, I hope we’ve found a balance. And, bear in mind, we’ve done four software redesigns since opening — to deal with new problems and implement better solutions. I’m pretty sure that will continue as better ideas come up. We’ve already had some from members of the community that are on my list to implement.

Would you see web literature emerging as a strong rival to books? Or as an eternal “ghetto” like art house films or graphic novels?

Let me obtusely quote (and probably misuse) Marshall McLuhan, here. “The medium is the message.” I don’t think you can treat books and web fiction as interchangeable — at the very least, some styles of writing just work better in one medium than the other — but, also, I think they are incomparable in a number of fundamental ways. Books aren’t just a technology — they’re a whole culture, with a business model, and a centralized control structure (publishers and editors). Web fiction mostly doesn’t have a business model, at the moment, and any filters you can design (ie. like WFG) are easily bypassed by people who don’t want to use them. As far as I’m concerned, that makes the two venues difficult to compare. They encourage entirely different things.

Many note the vastly disproportionate numbers of web novels that deal with darkness, GLBT, wizards, vampires, high schools, etc. rather than mainstream types of writing, then suggest that this is because it’s younger writers, or younger audiences, or merely an area in which marginal markets can make themselves heard. What do you think is going on with that, and do you see it as being an intrinsic situation or something that evolves?

Free, web-based fiction is a relatively young phenomena. I think the predilection for certain genres (fantasy and science fiction, in particular) has a lot to do with the kinds of people who naturally think to write online. Perhaps not surprisingly, there’s a strong correlation between the “geeky” genres and people who know how to and are comfortable working online.

Additionally, there’s no filter on the internet. There is nobody sitting in judgment saying, “people won’t want to read this.” Anybody can publish. That means stuff will get out there that isn’t considered bankable in print. As a result, online self-publishing will always lead the curve in cultural matters. But, yes, I expect that we will see a broadening of content over time. We’re still in the “early adopter” stage of online fiction.

The work on your site covers a startling range of visual appearance, from no-frills WordPress themes to incredibly elaborate schema (such as Dan Leo’s little self-contained universe) do you see any correlation, positive or negative, between elaborate presentation and the quality of the writing?

In my experience, there is no correlation between presentation and quality. I’ve read great work on the plainest possible websites, and crap on beautifully designed sites. Skill in visual design is a specific thing, just like skill in writing fiction is a specific thing. Some people have both skills; most don’t. That said, in the last six months, WFG has started enforcing some basic standards for authors who want to list with us. Specifically, it has to be easy to “turn the page” on any site we list. I figure that requirement is something we can easily do to improve the situation for everyone.

Similarly, the electronic formats make possible things that are wildly beyond the capacity of print books: tag cloud navigation, the use of tweets and avatared discussions as characters and plot devices, hyperlinks between chapters, inclusion of music, art and videos. Again, do you see this as distracting from the reading, or covering up mediocre writing, or as something that moves literature into new realms and challenges writers to measure up to it?

When you start getting into the kinds of things you’ve mentioned here, you really are talking about design work — user interface design, information design, etc. Those are, again, specific skills — skills most people don’t have. As a result, my feeling is that elaborate sites are more likely to fail to engage the reader than are simple sites. A talented author with skills in those other areas will, no doubt, be able to take things further. But most authors probably should stick with what they know — carefully crafted writing, presented cleanly and simply. Katherine Paterson said in one of her books on writing something to the effect that, in fiction, you can get away with anything the audience lets you get away with. “But,” she added, “nobody’s ever gotten away with much.” I think that applies here, too.

You’re approaching 500 projects listed on WFG now. Would you see web literature as a new paradigm, or a fad that everybody will jump into because it’s as easy as blogging, then leave to flock to the next buzz in a few years?

I don’t think it’s a fad, no. Self-publishing has always been an expensive thing, solely marketed to bad writers — people who have been turned down by publisher after publisher, and to whom it really matters to see their work in print. The web changes that. It removes the cost. It means it is no longer just a last resort of the desperate. Yes, naturally, that means even worse writing will get out there, but it also means that people who just want to share their writing can do it easily. I think you’ll get a broader range of skill levels interested in self-publishing, now that the barrier to entry is so low.

Personally, I choose to write online for many reasons: the biggest being that by publishing online, I get a real measure of how my writing works — or doesn’t — from real people who care only about how it made them feel. That feedback is invaluable to me — it helps inform my development as a writer. Truth is, few authors can afford to live solely off their writing. So, even if my writing is good enough to get published, I’d have to put a great deal of effort into marketing it to agents and publishers, for what amounts to very little payoff. I already make a good living doing something I’m very good at. Pursuing a publishing deal — at this stage in my development as a writer — seems like a very poor use of my time. In fact, I’m pretty sure pursuing a publishing deal would actually set me back, in the big scheme of things. Self-publishing online lets me be read, and to grow as a writer — all at no financial cost to me. That has a lot of appeal for me, and I don’t think I’m alone in that. No, web fiction is here to stay.

Speaking of cost/value, it’s obvious that a great deal of work went into WFG, and more is being lavished on it by your review staff. You are obviously paying to put it online and make no attempt to monetize it or solicit contributions. Is WFG what it looks like, a selfless labor of love?

Maybe one day there will be ads on WFG. I wouldn’t object to the idea of the site paying my rent. But at the moment there would be little point in it and there are no plans in that direction at the moment. Yes, I’ve put a lot of time into it, and our editors have, as well. And, at the moment, it’s all done solely because we think it’s worth doing. I’m a big believer in the value of the commons. The community is stronger with sites like WFG than it is without them, if only because it provides a place for the community to form. It provides a place for people to connect, and that’s a useful thing. Such sites will get paid for by the people who think the community has value. That’s the way it has always been.

Providing that “place for the community to form” puts WFG into a pivotal position in webliterature. And some might see that as a step away from it being the proverbial 900 pound gorilla, a virtual monopoly monopoly like Google or YouTue. Do you see that as possibly restrictive to the development of weblit down the road, or as demanding a special kind of responsibility?

“Big Gorilla” is a bit of a stretch, I think. We have about 3000 unique visitors a month, at present. It’s gradually increasing, but it’s still not a lot. And, bear in mind, when we started, the “big gorilla” was Pages Unbound — which no longer even exists. Also, there are a number of other review and listings sites out there. The internet isn’t like the real world. The barriers to entry are low and the playing field is even. Google killed Altavista. Facebook and Twitter killed Myspace. Somebody will kill WFG. It’s just a matter of providing a better product and doing it in a way that attracts people. That all said, I personally take the “responsibility” very seriously. It’s in the algorithm design, it’s in the way the site is administered, it’s in everything we do. I want WFG to be reliable and fair. We work hard to keep it so.

Other interviews with Chris Poirier:

http://webfictionguide.com/articles/interviews/archive/an-interview-with-chris-poirier/

http://www.novelr.com/2008/09/06/the-story-behind-web-fiction-guide

Web Fiction Guide is located at:

http://webfictionguide.com/

And when those who have moved to print mention inspiration (and perhaps augmented legitimacy), a name that comes up really fast is David Wong. His popular scary/funny serial has gone through almost every phase of publication but is currently available on… drumroll, please… Thomas Dunne Books. Yes, the Dunne that’s an imprint of major house St. Martins. And the hilarious thing is, being the Poster Boy For Bigtime Print Crossover isn’t even the most amazing development. Read on.

Like so many overnight successes, David’s trip to being a current favorite son at St. Martins didn’t start last night. Or follow a straight trajectory.

“I started my humor site PointlessWasteofTime.com in 1999–we’re talking movie reviews, essays, fake news, etc–and had a few thousand readers by the time I started writing John Dies at the End in 2001. So that Halloween I just put up a short scary campfire story (which would become the opening scene in JDatE) and treated it like any other update. So it was because I had a couple of years of writing web-friendly articles that I had an existing audience who was willing to go along with something like a short story.

“I got a really good response and made those stories a Halloween tradition after that, so the readers were only getting them once a year and the site was continuing to grow in between (I was updating the site weekly, year-round). So the other work I was doing on the site was kind of subsidizing JDatE because it was the reason I had an audience hanging around to show it to. They were willing to dive into this gigantic wall of text because they had other reasons to believe I could entertain them.

In 2005 I had completed the novel and, based on people asking for a .pdf they could print out, I decided to upload a copy to Cafe Press’s print-on-demand service instead. I wound up selling nearly a thousand of those to a lot of people who had always been curious about JDatE but unwilling to try to read a 150,000-word document in a web browser. That’s when Permuted Press (an indie print-on-demand horror publisher at the time) came along and said, ‘Hey, let’s do this for real.’”

Okay, so far it’s enough to render many webliterati awed/envious: a thousand copies of a POD, and an offer of a print contract. Becoming almost footnotes when St. Martins contacted him. And as David puts it, “rolled out the red carpet”.

“Fancy hardcover, availability in basically every book store chain (I’ve yet to see a Borders that wasn’t carrying it, and some are featuring it with the “new fiction” up front). So they’ve done absolutely everything possible to put it in a position to do well and I think they’ve been happy with the results so far. Or at least I hope, they’re probably too polite to tell me otherwise.”

The stuff of web writers’ dreams. But to aspiring writers sick of the whole mating dance with agents and pubco interns are probably still staring slack-jawed at that “contacted him” thing. Yes, Virginia: no agent involved.

“I actually never had an agent until after St. Martin’s contacted me, even the movie deal I negotiated through an attorney I found on the internet. It wasn’t difficult to find an agent at that point because I was basically saying, ‘I have a publisher on the line, they want to make a deal, I need you to draw up the paperwork.’ The hard part was already over.”

What “hard part”, right? Well, David puts his success into perspective that is, in its way, as encouraging to wistful aspirants as his shelf position.

“If that sounds like a dream situation, remember that from the time I sat down to write the first words to the day the book appeared in hardcover on stores shelves, eight years passed. It took that long to slowly advance the project from online serial, to self-publication, to print-on-demand paperback run, to big publisher book deal. A quarter of my life.”

Some might assume that David’s route to print was heavily driven by his day job, editor at “Cracked.com”. (How’s that for a day job?) But actually that came later. As I said, this isn’t a linear progression. And the biggest non-linearity is the amazing development I mentioned up top: MOVIE DEAL. (Do you hate this guy yet?)

“Somehow writer/director/producer Don Coscarelli got hold of a copy of the Permuted edition and contacted me about the film rights. That’s when things started to get crazy. Keep in mind, all of this is before I became the Editor of Cracked as a full-time job. I was working in a cubicle at an insurance company, doing PointlessWasteofTime.com purely as a hobby. “It was sales at Permuted and the movie deal that got St. Martin’s attention, I think. The Permuted edition had sold around 5,000 copies, purely by online word of mouth. That’s not a bad number for an unknown author but give St. Martin’s credit, too; they made the deal knowing there was the chance that everybody who wanted a copy already had one.”

So first the film deal, then the job, then the book. Are you jotting that down as a business plan? A word on that film deal. Coscarelli emailed David for rights “out of the blue” at the point when JDatE was just a series of blog posts. The guy who did the cult fave “Phantasm” back in the seventies, but better known for “Bubba Ho-Tep”, starring Bruce Campbell as a mummy-killing Elvis. Since then he’s had six other offers for the film rights to the story. But David knows how he wants to see it on screen.

“There’s no doubt that Don is the one who needs to make this movie. If you’ve seen Bubba Ho-Tep, there’s basically no movie that has better captured the spirit of John Dies At The End.”

So, any tips for getting there?

” Most of the aspiring writers I know agonize over getting the right idea for a book or screenplay and wind up going months between writing a word. And that’s fatal, because writing takes practice. Having that site, with a loyal readership, FORCED me to write. I updated every Monday, they knew it, and they complained if I didn’t. I had a thousand angry emailers to hold me to a deadline each week. You’d think that having these other writing responsibilities would rob from the time and energy needed to write a novel, but that’s like thinking that training for a marathon will ruin it because you will have used up all of your footsteps. It doesn’t work that way.”

The goading by fans has another upside, for David: ongoing feedback and encouragement.

“Another thing that I think kills novels, the way you can spend five years with the material, getting sick of it or bored with it, or not feeling like it’s rewarding you in any way. By doing this bit by bit, online, I could read comments coming in within hours. I wasn’t wrapped up in that novel-writing cocoon that makes so many writers drink themselves to death.”

So he wrote a blog story, self-pubbed it, got a film deal and is all over the bookstores. Does this indicate that the route he zig-zagged is a new alternative route for perspective novelists, a viable end run around the whole “submit and don’t ask” thing?

“The irony is that while I was obsessing over how to get my book into print, the publishing world was obsessing over how to migrate to e-readers and iPhone apps, etc.

“Once that technology matures, what’s the difference between a big publisher putting the hardback edition of Dan Brown’s latest on the iPhone and some college kid uploading his novel for download? That has the potential to be the great equalizer. Forget fancy binding and artwork: on an e-reader the blockbuster bestseller and the high school kid’s first novel both look the same.”

Yay, no more editors dirty looks?

“Of course, I’m talking like Editors are completely unnecessary and that’s not true. The editor at St. Martin’s helped me make some huge improvements to JDatE over the online editions. The role of the publisher will still be there, but the opportunity to get your work out to the masses, and thus get the publishers’ attention, will be there in a way it never has been before.”

David is reluctant to discuss sales figures (though others are doing so, with that awe/envy vibe) but happy to talk about non-sales. With an insight into the idea that “free” doesn’t mean “writer gets hosed”.

“I kept it free right up until the St. Martin’s deal. I have to admit, it wasn’t part of some grand marketing scheme. It started out as this thing on the internet and I never thought it would grow beyond that. The thought of charging for it in any capacity seemed laughable, I thought it would be like charging somebody to read my Facebook wall. And then it went into print and, well, of course books cost money to print so you have to charge for that, but I just thought of that as like a premium service I was offering. Here it is for free online, but if you want the fancy paper edition, you have to pay. But all the money I made off the Permuted edition I put into website expenses anyway. It really was just a hobby at that point. There was no thought of it cutting into sales, the goal was to get the story read.”

If there is anybody a webwriter should take a look at, it’s David Wong. John Dies At the End is horror, but the humor makes it very widely accessible and the career of the story speaks for itself.

Take that look at http://johndiesattheend.com and David’s “day job” work at http://www.cracked.com/

Better yet, buy the book at: http://www.amazon.com/John-Dies-End-David-Wong/dp/031255513X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1256489294&sr=1-1

Or if you like retro cool, get the Permuted Press edition at prices ranging from $88.14 (a solid discount off the $200 list price)  http://www.amazon.com/John-Dies-End-David-Wong/dp/0978970764

“I’ve always planned to break into print somehow, but I pretty much gave up on STREET’s chances when I decided to put it online. There weren’t nearly as many online-to-print success stories at the end of 2006 as there are now. The challenge was more to write a decent novel and see if I could get people to like my work; publication didn’t come into it until I had a book’s worth of material and decided to check out my options. That’s when I got into contact with Gryphonwood.”

Mostl success tales in weblit have an air of uncertainty about them, and a dash of luck. But Ryan is very definite about the role the online serial played in getting into print:

“I would never have gotten in touch with Gryphonwood Press if the serial
hadn’t been around. Half the sale was simply blind luck that Dave — the
chief editor of Gryphonwood — and I were in the same place at the same
time.

“What happened was, after finishing the first book online, I started making some inquiries on forums about my self-publishing options. Somehow Dave
caught wind of it and was impressed enough by the serial to contact me anonymously. I had no idea who he was at this point, let alone that he ran a publishing company, but after some back and forth communication, he revealed his identity and sounded me out about a publishing deal. Being the rank opportunist I am, that was all I needed. I went for it.”

And he’s just as definite about the contribution of the serial to actual consumer sales of the book: “No doubt! If I’d released Empathy without the online serial to back it up, I don’t think I would’ve sold half the number of copies. It’s a ‘try before you buy’ thing. Most people aren’t prepared to read a whole novel on a computer screen. However, quite a few of them are happy to have a quick flick-through to see if it’s something they would enjoy. If they like it, they’re likely to buy it. Things like the Baen Free Library are founded on that concept, and it works.’

That concept was re-enforced when I asked him about having the intermediate step of an eBook. And produces a very useful concept for anybody hoping to emulate Ryan’s success.

“There wasn’t really an intermediate step, but I’ve released free PDF copies of the STREET chapters all the way along. It’s a good thing I did! My traffic logs tell me they’ve been by far the most popular way to read the story. Free PDFs are a great way to interest people with e-readers, those who like the different formatting/colouring, or anyone else who just prefers it that way. It’s a must for any piece of weblit that wants to go places.”

This was definitely not a case of putting up installments of a finished book, however. He was committed to the weblit concept from the start:

“STREET has been online from day one. I had maybe three or four chapters written up when I launched the website. Everything else just evolved from there. A regular schedule is a good way of keeping readers interested. If they know exactly when to come back for more, they’re more likely to include a story in their routine or come back to it on a regular basis to ‘catch up’.”

So, “eLit” having been good to Ryan Span, would he see it as the “way of the future” for the next generation of writers aspiring to print?

“I think online-to-print is going to be a growth area for small publishers in the near future, but I don’t see it as a viable route to gaining fame or making a living as an author, which is really what most of us are after. It takes the same amount of hard work and dedication to stand out in this crowd, and you often don’t have very much to show for it.”

Aiding in the success of “Street” is the artwork from the site, which Ryan offers as computer wallpaper. A very atmospheric, “Nosferatu meets Blade Runner” look that sets the tone for the writing. And it didn’t just happen that he has that artwork:

” In my opinion, it’s worth it for any venture on the web to go the extra mile with regards to visuals. It’s the first thing new readers see. You have to catch people’s attention -somehow– and unique graphics are a good way to get your foot in the door. A plain standard blog page will work, but it’s going to have a harder time of it than something which stands out.”

Ryan credits designer Olli Strom and artist Jan Pospisil, who will do the cover for the next book in the series.

And he adds a note that might seem dated in this weblit era and discussion, but is certainly a reality:

“No matter what the circumstances, holding your own book in your hands for the very first time is an experience that stays with you for the rest of your life.”

See the website and RSS feed for STREET OF EYES at:
http://streetofeyes.com

The first book for Gryphonwood, EMPATHY can be purchased on amazon;com as paperback:

http://www.amazon.com/Street-Empathy-Ryan-Span

Or Kindle eBook:
http://www.amazon.com/Street-Empathy-ebook

Or as an eBook on smashwords:
https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/1024

Fans of the art can contact Jan Pospisilat: merlkir.streetofeyes.com

The big question being: did your online serializations lead to you placing your story Symptoms of a Broken Heart as a kindle book and trade paperback from Damnation Press?

“With Symptoms of a Broken Heart it definitely helped. There are a lot of new ebook publishers who are trying to attract readers. If you already have a few hundred fans, publishers certainly take that into account when choosing what stories to publish,” Cory says, also pointing out, “When I pitched the story to them I noted the 1,000 page views a week that Losing Latitude was getting. I would recommend using a blog format for two things: 1) Building your fan base. And 2) Learning to take criticism and edit your work to make it better.

It’s hard to build an audience even if your work is good. Posting it online will immediately give you a taste of reality on just how hard it is to make it as a writer. It’s likely that after three months you’ll only have a dozen readers and a comment or two on your blog. That’s okay, if the work is good, and you keep a regular schedule, and spread the word around, you will build your audience.”

Cory has background in print self-publishing, before moving to weblit.

“I actually started by independently publishing a 5-part 3,000 print-run, serial called Losing Latitude, I sold it in local convenience stores and hotel gift shops. It was selling very well and I thought I could expand my audience by posting it online.”

So much for the whole “you can’t sell self-published fiction” myth.  Cory also published under his own POD press. Would he then see self-publishing as being a good route to explore, along with weblit?

“I would not recommend self-publishing in print. There are tons of real publishers out there where you can sell your work if it’s good. And if you can build a fanbase of 1,000 readers online, your work will get published.”

That from somebody who was selling very well in convenience stores. Worth pondering. And the “Thousand Fans” concept, which has been put forth on several sites like novelr.com–it only takes a thousand good fans to support an artist. But there is also a sort of quirk factor involved.

“Symptoms is a sexy, dark Urban Fantasy. These weren’t huge categories at the bookstore when I wrote it two years ago: horror publishers thought it was too sexy and romance publishers thought it was too bloody.”

Welcome to the “Twilight Zone”. But overall, do you think blog-ebook-paper is the “route of the future”?

“If you have a mainstream story with a good hook, my advice would be to find a good agent. If you have something that’s tough to sell, or you just need some extra motivation to write, by all means, post it on a blog.”

So how does that work for you in particular? Are you writing on the fly, or posting sections of finished work?

“Losing Latitude was written and edited first, and then posted online. The prequel, Under Ottumwa, goes straight up online with only a quick edit on my part. I’ve found that readers kind of like pointing out mistakes as long as there aren’t a ton of them. And one of the advantages of posting the story online is that I can always go back and edit parts of the story if I really need to change something.”

Does weblit have different “rules” and artistic logic than print writing does?

“My natural writing style tends to have short 1,000 word chapters, and I think that is good for weblit, but I don’t think there are rules other than readers have to like it enough to keep reading. When Losing Latitude was on the web, I had about a 6% read-through rate. So 6% of the people who visited the first page read the entire story. That’s a good rate considering 2/3 of visitors leave after the first 2 pages. The bottom line is that you still have to write something readers love.”

Potential fans would find a good introduction in Under Uttumwa, part of the ongoing Latitude series, on his site at Cory Cramer.com.

But there more immediate gratification available in the published versions of Symptoms of a Broken Heart.   Available as a Kindle eBook or  Trade Paperback

The Losing Latitude series, currently five strong, is also available on amazon.com

I’m feeling my way with this site and software. I think it’s great somebody is doing this (I’m working up the nerve to show people my own blog novel and looking into ebook formats)

I have been wanting to establish myself as an interveiwer beyond the Denver/Boulder bar band scene and will use this space to do interviews with people who are making a difference (don’t you hate that phrase?) in ebooks, blognovelling and the other media featured in this this cool new network.

Stay tuned.

I mean it…